Profitable Property Management Strategies, With Roger Daniel

Property management is one of the most critical components in the growth and overall returns of a multifamily asset. Passive investors should know and understand how deal sponsors are approaching property management. This includes if assets in a fund will be managed in-house or via a third party property management company.

Roger Daniel, President and Founder of Daniel Management Group, joins the show to share his thoughts on profitable property management strategies.

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Episode Highlights

  • How property management strategy impacts income, growth, and subsequent returns of a multifamily asset.
  • The benefits third party property management companies bring to multifamily assets.
  • Key questions passive investors can ask to evaluate a sponsor’s property management strategy.
  • How macroeconomic challenges, including inflation and supply chain disruption, has impacted property management.
  • How property management strategy and challenges differ for smaller and larger multifamily properties.
  • Property management trends that will continue to impact multifamily investments.
  • Why Chicago remains an attractive MSA for multifamily investment.
  • How technology continues to influence property management processes.

Featured On This Episode

Today’s Guest: Roger Daniel, Daniel Management Group

About The Multifamily Investor Podcast

The Multifamily Investor Podcast covers trends and opportunities in the multifamily real estate universe. Host Scott Hawksworth discusses passive investment offerings in the space, including direct investments, DSTs, opportunity zones, REITs, and more.

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Show Transcript

Scott: Hello and welcome to the “Multifamily Investor Podcast.” I’m your host, Scott Hawksworth. And today, we are gonna be covering a topic that I’ve wanted to cover for a while because I think it is so important, certainly for passive investors in multi-family to really have a greater understanding about, and that is property management. Property management connects to so many things when you’re talking about multi-family. And joining me to offer his insights and perspective is Roger Daniel, who is the president and founder of Daniel Management Group, which does do property management. And he has a lot of experience in multifamily. So, I couldn’t think of a better person to join the show and offer that much-needed perspective. Roger, welcome to the show.

Roger: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I’m looking forward to sharing some of my thoughts.

Scott: Absolutely. So, I guess, let’s kick it off. Let’s dive right in with maybe sort of a table-setting type question here. You know, we wanna discuss property management and what passive multifamily investors should know about it. What are the ways that property management, quality, and strategy can really impact the income, the growth, and really subsequent returns of a multi-family asset?

Roger: Well, I think, you know, I’m probably a little biased, but I think property management really covers soup to nuts, everything on a property, which was part of the reason I got into property management. I saw it as a tool to really operate and own real estate. So, I think it’s really everywhere. And I think, you know, the best management companies are invoking both property management and really an asset management approach. And, you know, I think this impacts rents, you can do market surveys for new and renewal leases on ancillary sources of income. Some of the standard ones are bundled services, or move-in fees, or pet fees and rents. And then, there’s even more obscure fees, like, there’s ways to, for example, collect revenue on renter’s insurance.

Same with expenses, you know, the staffing, the admin, the marketing. When we take over, for example, from another property management company, we always find deep cuts we can make there that really do impact the bottom line. And if you sort of take a step back, I think there’s a role on kind of, both the CapEx side and then sort of value add strategy in terms of property branding in the website, any apartment amenities you may wanna add, indoor apartments, you know, in the common areas, green spaces, apartment rehabs or capital plans. So, it’s really…

Scott: Yeah, go ahead.

Roger: …income expense and below-the-line.

Scott: Yeah. And I think, too, when you take a step back and you look at it, it makes sense that, you know, you can have a fantastic asset, but if it’s not managed well, you know, you’re not gonna see that growth, you know, your income might not be what it could be otherwise. And then when you mentioned value add, Roger, I think that’s such a great point, too, because we see across the multi-family space, whether it’s funds syndications. So, many of the strategies that you see are sponsors going in, and they’re saying, “You know what? We can actually acquire this asset and manage it better. We can improve it, you know, add those improvements and then just run it better.” And I think that, of course, translates into returns for passive investors.

So, there’s a lot more we wanna dive into here. But before we do that, I wanna get just a bit more background on you and Daniel Management Group. You know, what’s the story behind DMG, and what’s your real approach to property management? Because I think there are so many different approaches and ways of having success. So, what’s the story there?

Roger: So, I really started almost accidentally. I was med school dropout, which is something you never wanna tell your parents you’re about to do. You know, I started at the bottom really leasing apartments. I had a mentor who I didn’t know how successful he was in the business but told me to just start leasing. And I didn’t know any better, and I just sort of started doing that and worked my way up really parallel tracks in operations and real estate finance. I was in leasing, I was an assistant manager, property manager, regional manager.

And then I was able to get some finance experience at the sort of after one of the crashes in around mid-2000s. And I did some debt inequity underwriting for Northwestern Mutual. And then, I sort of started putting those two sets of skills together, doing acquisitions, asset management, receivership, and REO. So, I was really able to see a lot of different angles of multifamily real estate. And I started then while working, buying with some friends and family money in around 2013. And ultimately, went out on my own in 2016 with a larger portfolio. And I hired my first, you know, true employee then. You know, we were always called Daniel Management Group or DMG, but in the beginning, it was really just me. And I think…

Scott: Emphasis on the Daniel.

Roger: Yeah, exactly. And I think our approach is really management first. Our slogan is management matters. And I think that’s a pretty unique approach surprisingly to me because I think it’s so valuable. You know, we’re Chicago based, but we’ve grown into… We start in the city, we’ve gone out to the suburbs, we’re in Milwaukee, and venturing out to Madison. And we view management as the sort of tool to achieve and control what we wanna do, the things we wanna do with the asset. And we’re always there providing strategy in the beginning of…you know, it’s really, in the end, adding value to people. And it allows you to push revenues, cut expense, and drive the returns our owners and investors want. And I think if you can do that and maintain the service to the residents, you can really provide a win-win scenario to people.

Scott: Right. And I think that’s such a great point, Roger, because, you know, at the end of the day, if the property’s being managed well, then the residents are gonna be happy. You know, they’ll wanna stick around. If rents increase, they’ll see, you know, “Okay, well, this is worth it because this is a great place to live. And look at how well it’s being managed, and all of that.” So, it really all feeds into itself, right?

Roger: Yeah, I mean, it’s a service business. I think, in the end, the resident is the north star. If you can keep them happy, taking reasonable steps, you’re on a good path to success. And there’s, of course, a lot of ways to slice and dice that. But I think, you know, if the property looks good, you’re attending to maintenance requests and sort of doing your part, I think you can do well and really drive those revenues ultimately, both rents and other sorts of income.

Scott: Absolutely. Okay. I’ve gotta ask this because I wanna get your perspective on third-party property management. I’ve had a number of discussions with folks across the multi-family world, sponsors, investors, and there’s sometimes a pushback where some sponsors, you know, maybe feel that, actually, third-party management isn’t the best deal for LPs. And because the interests aren’t aligned, and there’s a few reason, you know, first, no one will care about your property as much as you do. And then, second, you know, property managers have that industry standard of roughly 3% based on revenue, which incentivizes driving revenue up but not necessarily reducing expenses. So, what would you say to a passive investor who’s maybe looking at this, they’re looking at a deal that would be using third-party property management, as opposed to self-managed, and then has concerns because of that?

Roger: And again, I think this is, of course, the perspective I’m coming from, but I tend to look at it the opposite way. I mean, for us to really survive in a competitive market as a third-party manager, we’re out-competing other management companies, we’re having to hire the best talent, we’re having to train them, we’re having to take a holistic view of the property. You know, in the end, we’re servicing multiple owners with different priorities, different perspectives. And I think to really do that successfully, you need scale, you need resources, and you really need to execute. And I think I view our third-party platform and the owners we’re serving as sort of ways to sharpen our sword. I mean, ultimately, if you can do that and meet those different priorities, you’ve got a pretty strong platform. And actually, when we’re recruiting, when I look at talent, and I still do review resumes for new employees, one of the things I look for is that they have third-party management experience. Because, often, if they come from an owner-operated platform, management is not the priority. They tend to lack a little bit of the edge I see in people that really have to hustle as third-party operators.

Because, a lot of times, if you have the management in-house, the people really making the decisions often don’t have onsite experience themselves. And, in my opinion, that really is the difference, is actually having gone through the experience. And that really informs a lot of our decisions. And so, not having that experience, I think is a real detriment. And I think, you know, there’s ways around just incentivizing property management companies on income. You could do NOI incentives, for example, and you could make sure kind of the investment piece of the platform has good oversight on a property management company. I mean, I think we are set up…we can basically articulate where things stand on a one-page report on a weekly basis to an owner. And so, I think you can get your arms around the performance of a third-party property management company today pretty quickly and easily. And part of our process is to make sure things are transparent so that people wanna look under the hood, they have that capability.

Scott: I think that’s such an excellent point because, you know, as a passive investor, if you’re looking at a potential opportunity, you know, don’t necessarily just write it off if it’s gonna be third-party managed because, one, as your point there of the oversight that can be put into play. And then two, that experience level, you know, if you have a sponsor that’s saying, you know, “Oh, we’re gonna operate this, we’re gonna manage this ourselves,” but then you’re looking at that track record and they really haven’t done that before, or it just doesn’t have the breadth of experience that maybe some of the other third-party managers who do this have. I think that’s a valid thing to question and say, “Well, should I look at something that’s using third-party management?” Right?

Roger: Yeah. And I think the third-party manager could be a good check on the kind of the asset manager or the acquisition platform, too, you’ve got another set of eyes. And ultimately, I think if those two are working together, you can have a more positive outcome.

Scott: Okay. So, then I think this is a great segue. What can a passive investor do to maybe evaluate a property management strategy? You know, what are maybe some questions or exploration they can do to really get a sense of a company’s quality? So, if they’re looking at a deal and they say, “Okay, well, this is our third-party manager, they’re speaking with the sponsor, and they can look them up.” So, if, for example, you know, someone was using Daniel Management Group, what might be some of the questions and ways they can kind of ascertain, is this a property management company that’s going to be successful?

Roger: Well, when we’re taking over a new assignment, you know, we’ll always present a strategy and give some background about who we are. And I think a strategy should be holistic that a new property management company’s presenting, and I think that includes branding and marketing, making sure the asset differentiates itself in the marketplace. They should have a plan for adding additional source of revenue, they should be making sure they’ve done a market study to make sure the rents are in line, they should have a plan for reducing expenses. I mean, we always will put in a proforma in or a budget to show, like, in place versus what we’re planning on doing, or if it’s a lease-up, kind of the trajectory.

I also think, particularly if it’s not a new acquisition, there should be a capital plan for the asset, both in terms of kind of the, I guess, the less sexy side of things, you know, preserving the exterior, the windows, the roof, but also for sort of amenitization and upgrades, whether that’s in the unit’s interior common areas, you know, outdoors. So, I think that kind of holistic approach should be transparent, should be available to whoever’s evaluating it. And I think it tends to be a very, you know, kind of referral-based business. So, I think asking for referrals is wise. And I think, you know, the other nice thing is you can always sort of walk the assets they’re already managing and kind of trust your gut there because the way they’re managing now is probably the way they’re gonna manage going forward.

Scott: Right, right. If you have that experience, so why not walk and see, okay, well, this is the management company. Are the residents seemingly happy? Is it clean? Are there amenities here? You know, what is the overall quality that we’re seeing? I think that’s the kind of due diligence that passive investors should consider if they have questions about, you know, okay, you’re going third-party property management

Roger: For sure.

Scott: What are some of the significant differences? Because, you know, when we talk about multifamily, it really runs the gamut in terms of the size of the asset, all of that. What are some of the differences when you have smaller multifamily assets, say, you know, 10 doors and under, or larger multifamily properties? When you’re talking about property management, is it just a pure difference in scale, or are there other considerations?

Roger: I mean, I think the biggest thing to get comfortable with is sort of the staffing. If you’re really under, I would say 60 to 70 units, you know, it starts to beg the question, do you need full-time staff? And I think one way we’ve been successful is sort of how we slice and dice that. There’s ways to manage a property without having an onsite property manager, even as they get quite large. And there’s actually an argument for not having somebody on site on the management side full-time because they can get bogged down on tasks that aren’t that efficient. So, I think that’s one piece to understand when you go smaller.

I think the other is, you know, you naturally have a smaller marketing advertising budget. So, I think those dollars become very valuable in how you kind of slice and dice that. And, you know, where you spend, can you spend seasonally? Can you leverage word of mouth? So, those are kind of the things that you really have to start taking a hard look at if you don’t have scale for sort of a traditional operation.

Scott: When it comes to staffing, so is part of your strategy then, do you have folks that float between properties that you’re managing, and it kind of varies, and you kind of mix that in with folks that might be full-time on one specific asset? Where does the rubber meet the road there?

Roger: Yeah, we do. I mean, we look at anything below really, you know, I would say a 100 units doesn’t necessarily need full-time staff. A little of that depends on the quality of the product. If it’s brand new, for example, you don’t need full-time maintenance on a 100 units, you could have somebody there for after-hours emergencies but on-site maybe as little as two times, you know, two days a week. So, what’s nice about technology today is they can be sort of allocated to a certain number of buildings and they have, you know, in our company, for example, an app that shows work orders coming in and they can sort of plan their day at a bunch of different properties based on the need.

We also have a third-party leasing company where we have agents that are 1099 employees, and they can lease units around our portfolio. And that can be a real-time suck. And if you can get that off the property manager, for example, you can spread them across multiple properties. Again, depends on kind of what else is going on at the property. If there’s a large capital plan, you know, it’s tougher, or if the residents need a lot of handholding, or whatever the case may be. So, it is very case by case. But every time we look at a property, staffing is one of the first things we look at, what is it gonna take to really staff this properly?

Scott: I wanna ask a little bit about just sort of the marketing aspect of it, because, you know, there’s so many great opportunities out there where, you know, the lease-up is really important, stabilizing is really important. And that’s key to everything. And maybe passive investors don’t necessarily know exactly what effective strategies there are to lease up. So, I guess could you speak a bit to sort of that marketing and what’s been successful for you?

Roger: Well, I think it depends a little bit on the size. And when you say a lease-up, to me, it’s sort of newer construction, so you have that going for you. I think, to the extent, we really start kind of a lease-up strategy 90 to 120 days out, where you may, for example, do a walkthrough of the property, like a digital walkthrough, so you can see the units. Even if they don’t exist, there’s technology now where you can actually recreate the floor plan and allow people to do digital walkthroughs and a website. So, you can actually give people a pretty good feeling for what the property might look like ahead of time. And so, if you can get those sort of assets together, the website, photos or renderings, these walkthroughs, you can start preleasing several months in advance. And I think in terms of advertising, there’s, of course, the traditional ILSs like or Zillow or Zumper. Apartment List is another one. And so you have those traditional ILSs.

And I think, in the beginning, especially during the lease-up, you may want to allocate additional resources there. Search engine marketing is one, social media marketing is another. Those can get expensive. And you have to make sure you know the metrics there, kind of your spend per application or spend per lease because it can get pricey. But I think, you know, if it’s a different type of product for the marketplace or the marketplace is untested, you may wanna spend a little bit more upfront just to kind of have belt and suspenders to make sure, you know, you’re maximizing the lease-up. Because really the most expensive thing is to have a building that doesn’t lease up fast enough and has this sort of ongoing vacancy issue. So, it can be worth that extra spend to really make sure a lease-up is going well. And then you’ll wanna do social media, not social media marketing but actual social media from the property where you’re highlighting events, or amenities, or unit layouts, or finishes, things like that.

Scott: Right, right. And again, that all kind of feeds back into that strategy. So, if a passive investor’s talking to a sponsor, you know, okay, how are you gonna get this leased up? You know, you’re going with this company, okay, what’s their plan? I think that that’s a really important piece there.

Okay. So, I wanna shift gears, I wanna look a little more macro. You know, we’ve had a lot of uncertainty, I would say some upheaval, if I’m putting it lightly in the economy over this last year, you have supply chain issues, inflation. What has the impact of these challenges been that you’ve seen on the property management level?

Roger: I mean, I think some of this is still working its way through the system. I think inflation is a little bit of a double-edged sword. You know, the negatives, we know, cost of labor goes up, cost of materials go up and that can really impact things, especially if you’re doing, for example, a large capital project. But I think there is a silver lining in the apartment business to inflation, which is you potentially reduce supply, new supply coming on because developers are gonna take, you know, a hard look at doing new construction. And I think, you know, renters become less able to leave to go purchase a home. Their buying power is reduced.

So, I do think, you know, to an extent, it constrains supply and can help you continue to push rents. You know, that’s assuming you don’t have real serious impacts to employment. And I think, you know, in the current cycle that remains to be seen, you know, it feels like this isn’t gonna turn around right away. So, I think it’s wise to be cautious, you know, both in terms of, you know, how much you push rents, you know, how much you add additional costs to the renter because, you know, I think they can be vulnerable in an economy like this.

I think if, to the extent, the supply chain has been interrupted, that can impact your timing of construction or the amount you can spend on doing a unit rehab or an upgrade because, at least, you know, in Chicago, you’ve got a very limited timeframe where you can actually do work and then rerent the apartment before you go into a very long and cold off-season. You know, really October to March, it’s very hard to do any kind of real leasing. And so, if the supply chain isn’t… It’s one thing to be slow, and that’s part of the problem but it’s also unpredictable. And to the extent, either of those are the case, you really have to be careful about the timing of your rehab and construction.

Scott: Right, right. And have you, you know, especially when we talk about pushing rents, have you seen any difficulties with that in terms of, you know, folks saying, well, okay, we’re moving out, or resistance across the properties you’ve managed, or by and large, are you seeing, you know, yeah, these rents are being pushed but the job market, we haven’t, as you said, really seen too much loss that really makes that untenable for renters. I’m just curious to what you’ve actually seen there.

Roger: I mean, we’re sort of at the end of this year’s leasing season, we’re in November, so a lot of the actual transactional side of multifamily, at least in the Midwest, and if you’ve done your job right, is behind you. We had a strong leasing season. And it seemed that the better the product and the location, the more people were able to push rents. And I think we are always cautious unless there’s a clear indications we’ve got a big delta between what we can get on rents and what we’re getting because of the cost of re-tenanting the vacancy, you know, it’s very expensive.

So, I felt very good when the leasing season ended, you know, because you never really know. Every year it’s kind of like, you know, let’s see what happens. Because it is a short season and not a lot of room for error, but I think we’re sort of at the beginning stages of this still. And I think it’s really next season where, you know, we may have impacts from some of these sort of broader economic issues you mentioned.

Scott: Right. Yeah. And, you know, I’ve been in Chicago for 12 years now, and it’s just like clockwork. Once the spring starts, you get March, April, all of a sudden, the moving trucks just all start showing up. And that’s where you see a lot of that movement. So, I think as we close the books on 2022 and we look at, you know, where interest rates are, you know, what the Fed might do, all of these big macro impacts, it’ll be interesting to see where that all shakes out when we get through the winter and we start looking at that kind of time, certainly here in the Midwest.

I wanna ask, you know, I think this is a good segue, we were talking Chicago, you know, you’ve had success in multi-family in Chicago land. And on this show, we talk to folks from, you know, all over the country. And a lot of the sponsors and investors, there’s sometimes, I think a hesitancy to invest in Chicago, in California, in New York. There’s a lot of, “Hey, let’s go to the smile states. Let’s focus on that Sunbelt, let’s go to where, you know, some of the population we know is moving to.” What do you like about Chicago? What’s your real thesis for, “Hey, Chicago, when you look at multifamily is strong, and there’s a lot of potential here”?

Roger: I mean, look, there’s a lot of nice places in the country to live. I’ve often, you know, dreamt of going somewhere warm year-round. But I think…

Scott: Yeah, we all are.

Roger: I still, I guess just personally like the four seasons. But I think people wanna be in a city and have access to this city for the reasons you think of food, culture, you know, the architecture, and experiences that are just unique to a few large cities. And, you know, we were talking about the leasing season, you know, we’re coming off of a very strong leasing season. And the Chicago suburbs had high single-digit to low double-digit rent growth last year. So, you know, Chicago is just an enormous, diverse, and stable city and engine that really it drives talent from all over the Midwest. And I’m actually from Milwaukee originally a smaller city, and I’m still just in awe of, what an opportunity a large city can provide.

And I think when you’ve got good opportunities, it brings with it, you know, rent upside in value creation. And I think people often, you know, they focus on crime, which needs to be handled, of course, and some of the expenses. But, you know, to me, expenses can be underwritten, you know, you can project for expenses like taxes. And in the end, you know, they’re typically in the low 30s as a percent of the income. So, if you can get good income gains, you know, that really outweighs expense increases. And so, you know, I still remain very bullish on Chicago. The real estate goes on, multifamily property goes on for miles in all directions. And you’re not sort of constrained in terms of location, like in New York, for example. So, I actually find Chicago to just be this unique place to acquire and operate multifamily real estate.

Scott: Yeah. And, you know, as you were saying that, I was thinking about this, I was speaking with someone once and there’s also sometimes these concerns of like, “Oh, well, you know, Chicago’s not friendly to landlords or the political climate is not friendly to investing, or whatever it might be.” And I was speaking with someone and he mentioned, he said, you know, “Chicago’s always been Chicago.” This has always been the case for decades and decades and decades, yet it’s still here, there’s still a lot of opportunities. As you were saying, Roger, you know, it’s still this sort of beacon in the Midwest. There’s jobs here, there’s growth. That hasn’t changed. And yes, are there maybe some things you might need to navigate that wouldn’t be exactly the same in Florida or wherever else? Yes, that’s true, but that doesn’t change what makes Chicago compelling, right?

Roger: You know, and one other point is we’re starting to see, you know, cities really have to adapt to climate change. And I think Chicago is really shielded from a lot of that, you know, and doesn’t face a lot of the problems that these certainly larger coastal cities are facing. And that, too, I think is gonna become a bigger and bigger issue and a differentiator for Chicago down the road.

Scott: Yeah. You know, it’s funny, my wife and I joke sometimes we look and we’re like, “Hey, we got this great freshwater lake, and no hurricanes, and all the nice things going for us here. So, we’re doing all right.” I wanna ask about just trends in property management. You know, what are some of the trends that you’re seeing now that you think will continue to have an impact on multifamily investments? Be they, funds syndications, you know, what are some of the, whether it’s technology or otherwise, trends that you’re seeing that really seem to be driving growth and opportunity in property management?

Roger: I mean, I think the way I look at it, we’re sort of in a post-COVID world, where, I mean, we’re certainly getting back to some level to how things were pre-COVID. But I think people are looking for more space in their apartments. I think they want the opportunity to be able to work from home and be set up there to do so. So, things like, you know, having a nice bar to work at where you can plug in and having high-speed internet available are things that people really are gonna want going forward. And, you know, they’re gonna be spending potentially double the amount of time living out of their apartment.

So, I think, you know, now more than ever, apartments are valuable and important to people in a way they really haven’t been in the past. I think, you know, when you get to sort of common areas and buildings, co-working spaces is a trend that, again, is a reflection of COVID. And one other thing we’ve seen is sort of community rooms, which can be made adaptable. You can use them for co-working, you can carve out a space for a property manager to sit. And so, you can also have parties there. So, I think that kind of flex space is a trend.

And then, I think outdoor amenities have become in much higher demand, you know, fire pits, and playgrounds, and dog walks because people are really starting to value their time outdoors and the amenities that come with it. And I think from sort of a technology perspective, I think virtual tours also kind of that technology was really pushed forward as part of COVID, and is here to stay. I think people will still tour apartments, but they may tour their last 2 apartments and not 10 this time. And I think, look, that’s a good thing, that makes everybody more efficient. It’s easier on the staff, it’s easier on the prospect. It’s just an improvement.

And, you know, I think smart departments is another thing we’re seeing a lot of, just in terms of access, front door access, apartment door access, thermostats that can be controlled, lights that can be controlled, music. I think that’s something that people really like. It’s not super expensive to incorporate, and is probably here to stay. The last one I would say is sort of package storage and management. I don’t know if you’ve looked around, but there’s a ton of boxes, you know, being delivered in a way that wasn’t the case, I would say pre-COVID.

Scott: Oh, yeah.

Roger: And really learning how to kind of store those securely and make sure people get them is big. And there’s a lot of technologies to help you do that.

Scott: Right, right. And I think those are so all great points and great trends to keep an eye on. And from the investor perspective, if you’re looking at a deal, whether it’s a Class A, Class B, Class C, or, you know, maybe a value add play, having an idea of the kinds of things that are gonna be added or the kinds of amenities that will exist if it’s a ground-up development, that is really key. And if it doesn’t have necessarily things, like Roger was just saying, you know, really look in there and see, are they following a strategy that’s gonna provide the most value and most return, I think that’s a really, really great set of trends to kind of keep an eye on. I think we’ve really covered property management. I don’t know if you have any closing thoughts. If you were to say, you know, “Hey, this is what can really separate good property management from not as good or what have you?

Roger: You know, I think we’ve covered a lot of it. I think the onsite’s experience is crucial, and it’s a holistic approach. Ultimately, I think the resident should be the guiding star. And if you can add value to their lives in a way that’s cost-effective and impactful, everything else kind of falls in behind that. And so, if you can sort of develop a strategy that’s specific to the property and meets the resident needs, you know, you can then push rents, drive other sources of income. And if you can moderate expenses while you do that, I think you’re in good shape.

Scott: Right. That’s the winning formula, right?

Roger: Exactly.

Scott: Roger, thank you so much for joining me on the show today, providing such insight on property management. And if our viewers and listeners would like to learn more, maybe connect with you, where can they do that? Where should they go?

Roger: So, you can reach out to us through our website, And we have links to our social media. From there, we’ve got Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, you can find that all through our website. And if you want to, you can contact us. There’s a contact us link on the website, and you can reach us that way.

Scott: Fantastic. And we will, of course, have links to all of that on our show notes at And be sure to subscribe to us on YouTube if you aren’t already subscribed or on your favorite podcast app to make sure that you’re keeping up with all the latest episodes. Thanks again, Roger.

Roger: My pleasure. Thanks for having me. It was great.